Blurts & Spasms

Thanks for the A2A Glenn. I have read through your comments to other answers and think I have an understanding of where you are coming from and what you are looking for. So here goes….

- The kind of “socialism” that Bernie Sanders is selling is mainly a fairly vanilla New-Deal-Democrat-styled socialization of certain services, industries, infrastructure, etc. as part of a mixed economy, to generate a broader base of public goods. It wasn’t really considered a “radical socialist” idea in FDR’s time (at least not on the Democratic side), and Sanders’s proposals are really harkening back to that New Deal vision. From the perspective of the Left, the New Deal remedies are viewed mostly in a positive light, because their impact on the poor, the elderly, the sick and the unemployed in the U.S. population over time has mainly been positive (using specific metrics). So, for example, in terms of health, standard of living, purchasing power, longevity, home ownership, infant mortality, economic mobility, employment, labor relations, etc., things got a lot better for those groups than they were during the Depression.

- Since the end of WWI, however, there has been a concerted effort by the far Right to demonize anything smacking of Soviet communism, which has often involved conflating Marxist-Leninism with the social democracies in non-Soviet European countries, as well as with progressive initiatives in the U.S. (or at least placing them in the same Boogieman bucket). Of course these are all quite different flavors of political economy - and none of them is really “socialism” in the ideal sense - but that is a separate conversation. Thus the far Right likewise attacked FDR as a communist and fascist, insisting that smaller government, lower taxes and a freer market were a preferred outcome over New Deal policies.

- Fast-forward to modern day. The far Right - which became associated with the term “neoliberal” in the 1950s and thereafter - has gained significant traction in defining its “smaller government, lower taxes, freer market” narrative, successfully countering the the New Deal Democrat meme so that it now appears to be “radical” or “far Left,” when it’s actually centrist in historical terms. Neoliberal Republicans have done such a good job of this, in fact, that many conservative Americans believe things like “all socialist economies have failed,” or “the free market is responsible for our greatest technologies and innovations,” or “free market capitalism has single-handedly improved the living standards of everyone around the globe.” Now it doesn’t really matter if these are factually true statements - in reality they aren’t - because so many people believe that they are. And belief is a powerful thing: powerful enough to consolidate an often unquestioning ideological, political and economic conformance.

And there you have it. That is why many Democrats (and independent Bernie Sanders supports) view the creation of public goods as a positive thing, and can accept the term “socialism” as a description of New Deal socialization and regulation.

I hope this was helpful.

Comment from Glenn Nall: very very helpful. i am admittedly far from knowledgeable in this Socialist philosophy. did you read the response from the Norwegian young socialist democrat? i was floored by even the idea that free education, healthcare, social programs have succeeded anywhere. she is very articulate and knowledgeable, and she knows why (at least she thinks) it works in her country, unlike the things we hear from our own counterparts who seem to just hear the word Free and stop there (probably because they have to go get ready for the Trump rally demolition).

The problem I have, as I explained to this young woman, is that I just don’t hear any defenders of ANY form of Socialism using these definitions.

Has BernieSandals EVER described his idea of Soc. in these enlightening terms? Has anyone publicly? It seems to me that all of this knowledge is shared amongst a very select few people who have made it their business to know these things. The large majority of today’s voters who want Birkenstock Sandals’ (can’t help it - i really like the guy but for his politics) socialism I’m sure cannot tell you why they do.

I’ll admit to being a victim to some of the Right Rhetoric, if as you say this has succeeded in some countries. Of course, my conservative bent would raise other issues with which i would not agree in such a society, i’m guessing. But my socially accepting bent might. I’ll have to ask them.

You and the young lady have opened my eyes to some potential learning.

I read this “Origins of Political Correctness” a few times, and in it this Neoliberal and Right stuff is referred to (Marcuse and his Freudian/Marxist sabotage of the vulnerable Left in the 60’s…?). I’m wondering how that version aligns with yours… The Origins of Political Correctness

I’m very grateful for your time in offering me a civil explanation. These are rare. I’m a Conservative, fiscally, mainly because i cannot disagree with the idea that free enterprise and competition is how business succeeds, since it’s how humans are naturally built to behave. and because it’s what has always worked, party lines aside. and because it’s clear that that’s what the USConstitution meant.

but i really wish to be open to new ideas and to accepting other people no matter how wrong they are - just kidding. no matter how different we are. If a form of free edu. and healthcare is presented that works and doesn’t close down every other company, i’m all for it, of course.

i’m rambling. thanks

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Glenn. I agree with you that many of the terms we throw around in the general public discourse are not always well understood, and it doesn’t help that here in the U.S. those definitions may be different than elsewhere around the globe…and may even change in different regions of the U.S. And of course mass media often muddies the waters even further, as does the seemingly spiraling polarized rhetoric of Right vs. Left. So boiling things down into what we might call “ideologically neutral” language can be challenging.

As to what Bernie Sanders voters actually think about X, Y or Z - that’s tough to nail down. It’s a pretty diverse crowd. Some probably do think the platform is all about “everything for free!” Others probably read it more as “take from the rich and give to the poor.” Still others are more focused on social issues, and don’t give a damn about economics. Bernie himself has certainly been sparse about the details. For me personally, as a libertarian socialist I’m more interested in disrupting the status quo and moving away from crony capitalism, where government has come to mainly serve the largest corporations, and a constitutional democracy of the people, by the people and for the people has become a farce.

Regarding Political Correctness, there is no question that Marx had a profound influence on socioeconomic thought over the last century, which is why every person who wants to be informed about world history during that period should carefully read Capital (and not just critiques, summaries or praise of it). However, in the speech you linked William Lind is promoting a conspiracy theory (see Frankfurt School - “cultural marxism” subheading) that connects too many dots in unsubstantiated ways. It’s just not tenable, and has a similar feel to the Illuminati conspiracies at the other end of the spectrum. There is no coordinated attempt to “overthrow western culture with political correctness and multiculturalism,” and this is the playbook Lind is alluding to. Instead, what Lind, Buchanan, Weyrich and others are upset about are just progressive ideas that slowly have gained a foothold over time - some of which were indeed promoted by Marx and other socialist writers, and some of which came into focus through other movements, activists, artists, politicians, etc. They are representative of a predictable, generational zeitgeist shift that, perhaps ironically, seems to be a predictable result of affluence, knowledge diffusion, and mass communication…rather than conspiracy. And when we look into “cultural marxism” literature for supportive evidence, what we find are bizarre declarations like “Jews and homosexuals having prominent positions in the media is proof that Cultural Marxism is succeeding in the U.S.A.” Um…not really. It’s just proof that prejudice, tribalism and insecurities around race and sexual orientation are relaxing a bit - just as they tend to do in most affluent, well-educated advanced societies. We could just as easily blame marijuana for these developments…and of course be just as mistaken.

Regarding “successful socialism,” in all mixed economies, including here in the U.S., some socialized sectors work well, and some don’t. The USPS was surprisingly efficient, cost effective and popular for most of its existence…until Congress made it pre-fund its retirement program 70 years in advance. After that debacle, USPS threatened to operate in the red for the first time in its history, and since then has lost both prestige and profitability as it desperately cuts services. IMO the retirement pre-funding was a deliberate sabotage of one of the most successful and longstanding “socialist” institutions in the U.S. AmTrak hasn’t done so well. Medicare is a mixed bag. K-12 education in the U.S. has been all over the place and has been yanked hither and thither by what have often been ill-advised top-down policy decisions. Federal monetary policy itself (and ironically Milton Friedman’s “monetarism” in particular) can also be viewed as “socialist” in that it represents central economic controls (rather than relying solely on the market) - and here again, sometimes it has been helpful, and sometimes it has seemed ineffective. Fisheries and BLM have been pretty inconsistent, likely also because they get jerked around by DC politics and pocket-lining clientism - while also being glacially slow to respond to necessary change.

Interesting stuff to be sure.

(see https://www.quora.com/Why-do-SOME-intellectual-Democrats-think-Socialism-is-a-fiscally-positive-Economic-plan-when-its-SO-proven-internationally-to-be-catastrophic)